When your prof is underpowered, what do you do?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The answer is not reroll.

The forums must contain the answer.

here is the problem I face:

I have taken my prof to the pinnacle of equipment. There is nothing more I can do to improve him.

That said, I want to make use of him now, and that means finding competition to duel, or pvp.

I'm not a wuss. I'll fight whoever wants to duel. If it doesn't work, I'll try something else. But, when you've tried everything there is, and nothing works, you get really disappointed, really quick, especially when you've made every possible improvement to your toon.

Here is my problem. Advy vs keeper.
advy buffed evades (wolf) 1350
keeper buffed evades: 1250
advy AAD: 550
keeper AAD: 650

keeper AR: 1800
advy AR about 1750

keeper heals: so-so
advy heals: great

Perk defense:
advy: min 200, max 800 +coon
keeper: 0 +coon

reflects: keeper 13%, 19 s/120s extra 17, 4% more if proc goes off.
advy 13%,

evade procs: keeper: 110 if lucky, an extra 50 IF reflect already popped, and got real lucky again (like never).
advy: none.

Offense: keeper: extra 300ish dmg proc (vengeance), and wrath (checks evades, doesn't land)
advy: sneak attack, which always lands, and often does 3K-4k dmg. Duel wields so gets more attacks, more procs.

So: effective evades: advy: 50% is 2100 evades vs 1800 AR and 50% is 2700 vs 1800 AR, while
keeper: 1900 evades vs 1750 AR +SA.

Now, advy got better heals too, so, when advy goes down in HP, it's not an issue, because they got insta heals, CH and normal moonbeam to get em right. Keeper only perks which have a recahrge of approx 45s to 2m. And, can heal about 1/10th as much as advy if spammed.

So, you know why I get angry? It's cuz my prof is so underpowered compared to another prof it makes the game seem like a effing joke. Who designed advy?

They need a serious nerf.

[Kinkstaah]

you play an entirely perk related class, and you are at 170, where you have practically none of your toolset yet.

The only answer is reroll, you chose the wrong class for non endgame PVP.
The forums have spoken.

[Saetos]

Originally Posted by Kinkstaah you play an entirely perk related class, and you are at 170, where you have practically none of your toolset yet. The only answer is reroll, you chose the wrong class for non endgame PVP. The forums have spoken.

That's a great answer:

"Don't believe your profession works the way it should? Well too bad, Frodo, back to the Shire with ya."

[Gatester]

You can get far more than 1800 AR on your keeper, I believe over 2000 is possible. The other issue for adventurers that a keeper will never have, they run out of nano. If an advy is using the Invocation he will run out even sooner against a DPM prof if the fight drags on.

Honestly, I would like to see your setup so I can compare it to the others I have seen.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

@ gatester
http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=151097


Thats as high as you can reasonably expect without seriously gimping other parts of your toolset. Keeper needs coon or it's a 30 second blowout, and you can't expect to operate under any conditions without blessing. Therefore, i lose 28 AR in 3 perks in reaver, and about 60 AR from no presence tower.

The only other place I can get AR is insight, which I have currently sacrificed for ConC, since feast lands it's more beneficial than a perk giving 135 AR that only lasts 20 seconds, and if mistimed by 5 seconds, means that with all the hotswaps necessary to actually achieve thru-limber perkability, I have only about 10 seconds to get my full alpha off IF I get the timing AND the hotswaps don't bug.

So, ya I can get 1900 AR in offense, with combat hud and sacrifical ensigns and one more ring, but, then the problem is that I have about 3000 less dmg required to kill an advy during limber. so, it's a catch 22. Give up conc, which is my top dmg perk at aroud 1500-1600 dmg (alligned), for insight, which gimps my dmg but with perfect timing, could result in getting an advy to about 30% dmg during limber.

(don't forget I have to do thru coon ofc.)

[McKnuckleSamwich]

saying that an advy might run out of nano vs a keeper is like... well, I dunno, but it just doesn't happen. A keeper just cannot inflict enough dmg on an advy to make him even think that he's got to start a invo.

lets pretend a half twinked advy fights a fully twinked keeper.

keeper goes def setup during DOF.
start of fight.
advy DOF's. keeper coons.

keeper lands maybe 5 hits but no procs fire. advy lands SA, and maybe 8 hits. But, only inflicts about 1000 dmg through coon.

coons is down but keeper survived the first SA relatively unscathed.

keeper pops blind.

keeper out heals most dmg inflicted by advy. feast lands on keeper. so does crave. Keeper has take about 4k dmg.

10 seconds later the NEXT SA is coming.

keeper uses dev armour.

keeper still taking dmg, advy at full strength.

DOF about to run out.

SA lands, keeper at 50% HP. with no defences left. advy has Limber up, now, 90%-100% HP, and full nano.

perhaps a 4% reflect has procced for keeper if he is lucky, EVEN uber lucky and 110 evades are up as well.

Keeper swaps to AR setup. 1800--> 1900AR now pop flurry. advy coons
keeper launches nanofeast. lands. advy knows alpha inc.
lauch CoHI. lands
advy coon is just breaking, fast attack, brawl, wrath. advy at about 60% HP.
cleave, transfix, advy instas, moonbeam, back at about 50% strength.
Many normals are hitting now though, and advy is down to about 35% HP.
advy pops a perk heal, sit battle prepped heal, first aid, and moonbeam, back to about 55% health, keeper has no alpha left, advy has DOF inc in about 5 seconds

Advy pops DOF, keeper is dead in about 15 seconds with no coon, no heals, no perkable evades, and to cap it off, there is ANOTHER SA coming! The advy NEVER even came CLOSE to using phoenix, and the keeper has expended EVERYTHING in order to drop the HP during the short weak period, but, it wasn't even enough to get the advy to CH.

By the end of the fight, the advy is at 80%-100% health, and about 80-90% nano, keeper has 1 minute left on coon, 1:20 left on dev armour, and at least 60 seconds left on CT.

dimach? sure. you can use it. once an hour, and it heals an incremental amount of dmg, on average 2000. useful? sure. but, realistically, IPing swimming will come in more useful more often.

Fixes? If the procs actually procced, and wrath had a 70% check, and it hit for about 4x more, then it would be an even fight.

[Ciekafsky]

Every single profession is underpowered when compared to advys. Learn to live with it. At last they dont alphakill you so you are not underpowered but rather somewhere near the very top of the food chain.

[Rub]

Originally Posted by Kinkstaah The only answer is reroll, you chose the wrong class for non endgame PVP.

To be honest, endgame keepers have a real hard to impossible time killing good advies too...

McNuckle, you just have the misfortune to play an underpowered pvp class, and at a notoriously horribly performing title level to boot. There's not much you CAN do at the moment, except wait and see what the balancing will give us.

Also, if you could stomach things going in OE you might be able to put on higher QL combined armors...which ought to raise your AR a bit. I doubt it'd help much though.

[Dopecat]

I should do similar Crat vs Enfo at Tl5 to show you what really is lopsided. It goes something like this:

You see enfo running at you, you hit all your alpha, enfo loses 10%-20% hp or nothing if he hits cocoon.

You use your toolset to keep him at distance, doesnt help, he rages out, or roots wont even land through his high rage NR.

He reaches you and completely r*pes you through your only defence, 2k+ Def rating and CC toolset that doesnt work on enfos at all.

Game over, repeat over and over. And this isnt just against top enfos, but even semi-gimpy chiroptera enfos that are lvl 150 against max twinked 170 crat, cause likely same results. Difference is just that you have more time to cry out in vicinity how cruel world is before you die.

No heals, no absorbs, nothing to fall back on, every hit you get hurts like a mtfcker and cant be undone. And from 170 enfo those hits drop fast and hard along with capping sneak and nanofeast.



Then again, crats are lots of fun against advies in BS (if they use morphs). I still like playing my crat, even if there are enfos around, just gotta accept that i am to them what marmots are to hunting eagles.

(and then there are agents, traders, NTs that also do pretty much the same at ease, if twinked)



So to your original question "When your prof is underpowered, what do you do?"
I die or run away, and then gank the ones even worse off than me, or the ones not so twinked. Or i hug a doc, and act like support prof, AOE fear doc-gankers and give my AAO/AAD auras. Or if all else fails, log one of my lubchild tl5 twinks (agent/trader/doctor) instead.

[Kinkstaah]

Originally Posted by Rub To be honest, endgame keepers have a real hard to impossible time killing good advies too... McNuckle, you just have the misfortune to play an underpowered pvp class, and at a notoriously horribly performing title level to boot. There's not much you CAN do at the moment, except wait and see what the balancing will give us. Also, if you could stomach things going in OE you might be able to put on higher QL combined armors...which ought to raise your AR a bit. I doubt it'd help much though.

This is true - but the fact remains, it's like playing a trader before they get access to drains, or like playing an enforcer without rage, or a MA without evades, etc.

As a keeper (or a shade) by design, you do not get all of your toolset until 220..

I never said it was good design, but that's just how it is.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

boy, all you guys are very kind. i'm used to a lot harsher words like: you're obviously gimp, and "kipur sux reroll gimp" but I enjoyed reading all your responses, particularly poor ani's crat life on BS.

And, I am well aware of the pseudo nemesis classes :/

like: keeper run allong at full health and soldier with GSF come along and 0.6 milliseconds later HP at 40%, and then 20% as perks land, and then swap hit AS dead.

and you wonder what in hell the fuel is they put in those trucks cuz they is hitting like a cement truck with a jet engine :O

But, the point is taken. I wish there was a button that made all duel request from advy be ignore, and all joo'r gimp tells from advy be ignored too.

[Flyingengi]

Comparing your profession to a profession that has always been OP since the beginning of SL and then claiming that it sucks because you can't keep up with it doesn't make it gimp.


Oh, and to answer your initial question in the thread title... I don't request that my profession be as powerful as said profession that is. I request that said profession's toolset be looked at and that said profession be brought down to the level that everybody else is on.

[Ciekafsky]

I really cant understand why the hell are you exaggerating so much on forums Noobas. Those stories about random solds droping more or less twinked people in milliseconds etc... Those are very entertaining whines but you know, we, all the trolls trolling here, have been playing this game for some time and we simply know that it aint true.

You know, twinks with "underpowered" professions are remembered for years while advys, agents and enfs are lost in time as soon as they quit.

[Gatester]

Ok Noobas, now that I have seen your setup I can give you a more indepth post.

The first part will be to explain my experience with the most underpowered of tl5 professions, ranged adventurer. My weapons of choice are either a hard to equip pistol with ~28 second burst recharge and 900ish burst skill, an FA pistol given to a profession with no actual FA support, and a shotgun with terrible crit reliant damage but still the only meanignful weapon thanks to AS being OP. My offense relies purely on perks, and AS/FA having some phenomenal luck, and the worst part is my attack rating is probly the lowest of all the ranged and infantry profs at tl5.

Now the ONLY way to make ranged adventurer effective is two parts. You must kite to survive, and you must sacrifice for offense so that your alpha only killing can actually work. Doing this you can eventually take out several people in mass pvp while remaining relatively safe at a distance, but dueling is almost entirely out of the question and range loses a lot of max health compared to melee versions and regular damage. The worst part, even if I do not sacrifice defense for offence, professions like traders, agents, enforcers, and soldiers will still perk you, and even some fixers.

I am not saying ranged adventurer is terrible, it is actually quite fun. I simply have had to live with the fact that during my 3 years of ranged advies, only the first few months before the massive crit reduction and dodge craze allowed me to be a truly dangerous player.




What I hope you can take from this Noobas, is that your keeper will have a roll and a setup, but you will need to make sacrifices to enjoy it. I want you to work on an extreme setup Noobas and test it out a bit if you can. From what I see in your setup you have a very balanced setup, but those setups fail in the end because of the way AO mechanics and def work. I'll post some things I want you to give a shot.

Bladestaff - 870
Sacrificial Ensigns of Cerubin
Heavy Bracer
Insight (Crusade 8)
Dalja's Ring of Power

Now you will likely want to keep the notucomm equipped (I would keep Gladiator in mind for the Runspeed and nanoskills), but hotswapping to an offensive hud using those 5 additions will put you at ~2050-2100 AR while Insight is running if not more were I in an actual calcing mood right now. On paper anyone would think losing cocoon strength, or even 150-200 def will ruin your toon, but the fact is playstyle will have the biggest impact on your toon. Kite more, you will not miss the def too much, use cocoon to stop alphas while you rip someone to shreds rather than using it to give you the illusion of staying power. When people are dieing to you more, they tend to be able to kill you less and lose focus.

Being underpowered does not mean you have no options, it means your options are limited. The most unfortunate thing for keeper, just like ranged advy, is that lacking a nano based offense forces you to sacrifice defense and survival to kill others. If you have the skills to make up for that, however, then you can at least make your keeper shine in some areas, but I am afraid you will never have an option for all areas of tl5 pvp.

[navycut]

Originally Posted by Gatester The first part will be to explain my experience with the most underpowered of tl5 professions, ranged adventurer.

Oh my... yer those tl5 ranged advs surely are the nerfest. Because shades and keepers are better than them... wth are you smoking?

Ranged advs got tonnes of survival at tl5, even if melee got a better alpha and whatever.

[Legion84]

Yeah it used to be more balanced Pre LE you could survive 15mins or so fighting an advy if you timed it right @ TL7 you could eventually wear them down, and SND did decent damage there were less aad and hp items in game to.. i used to love fighting advy back then, now it's pointless just to much HP evade aad and heals sometimes you can't even perk an advy when they cycle evades!! when a keeper can't perk they usually wont win and deffo not against advy. Now to add to insult advy are decent ranged with AS back again so they always have a 30% cap or chance to on either weapon and our nerfed dodge rng .... bring back Pre Le days!

ps Funny how Advy's having nothing to whine or complain about much in this section or even in the adventurer forums! just look around at other profs and their problems and then to the advy forums lol.

[Taishas]

Wear Kyr'Ozch Sword - Type 112 instead of ofab wolf for more AR (48 AAO proc).

[Noky69]

Originally Posted by Kinkstaah you play an entirely perk related class, and you are at 170, where you have practically none of your toolset yet. The only answer is reroll, you chose the wrong class for non endgame PVP. The forums have spoken.

To bad pvp doesnt change for keepers at 220. you just survive alittle longer. still cant kill anyone

[Noobius76]

Question: Do you have 2s heal delta with this setup?

[Gatester]

Originally Posted by navycut Oh my... yer those tl5 ranged advs surely are the nerfest. Because shades and keepers are better than them... wth are you smoking? Ranged advs got tonnes of survival at tl5, even if melee got a better alpha and whatever.

First off no one said nerfest, the topic was underpowered. Shade = good damage and weapons, keeper = good damage, offense and weapons. Just because you cannot tank an enforcer on a shade in a duel does not make them the nerfest or most underpowered, it just makes the people using them for duels rather than ganking or suprise attacks dumbasses.

Also my experience > your trolling. I did the shade thing at tl5, and it is not nearly as bad as ranged adventurer. Survival is great and all, but if survival was ever more important than actually being able to kill other players then I suppose the number one 220 profession would be Fixer?

The minute you have to use a pair tl3 weapons on your 170 twink and have the only chance of killing people is hoping you outdamage their healing with a single special or hope they are green enough to be perk alphad with the same perks every tl5 profession is using, come whine to me about keeper and shade.

Tl5 melee advy has more survival than tl5 ranged, ranged can just kite and spam AS making towers slightly easier. Honestly navy do you know anything about tl5 professions or you think so many people say something you can get in a few troll points by trying to missquote me?