Really need to figure out my problem with stuttering

[Ruthiford]

Here is my DX diag information.

------------------
System Information
------------------
Time of this report: 2/14/2009, 05:25:58
Machine name: FRED
Operating System: Windows XP Professional (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 3 (2600.xpsp.080413-2111)
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: System manufacturer
System Model: System Product Name
BIOS: BIOS Date: 01/12/07 13:15:38 Ver: 08.00.12
Processor: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4600+, MMX, 3DNow (2 CPUs), ~2.4GHz
Memory: 3072MB RAM
Page File: 327MB used, 4629MB available
Windows Dir: C:\WINDOWS
DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)
DX Setup Parameters: Not found
DxDiag Version: 5.03.2600.5512 32bit Unicode

------------
DxDiag Notes
------------
DirectX Files Tab: No problems found.
Display Tab 1: The file nv4_disp.dll is not digitally signed, which means that it has not been tested by Microsoft's Windows Hardware Quality Labs (WHQL). You may be able to get a WHQL logo'd driver from the hardware manufacturer.
Sound Tab 1: No problems found.
Music Tab: No problems found.
Input Tab: No problems found.
Network Tab: No problems found.

--------------------
DirectX Debug Levels
--------------------
Direct3D: 0/4 (n/a)
DirectDraw: 0/4 (retail)
DirectInput: 0/5 (n/a)
DirectMusic: 0/5 (n/a)
DirectPlay: 0/9 (retail)
DirectSound: 0/5 (retail)
DirectShow: 0/6 (retail)

---------------
Display Devices
---------------
Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 9600 GT
Manufacturer: NVIDIA
Chip type: GeForce 9600 GT
DAC type: Integrated RAMDAC
Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_0622&SUBSYS_104319DA&REV_A1
Display Memory: 512.0 MB
Current Mode: 1920 x 1080 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Monitor: Plug and Play Monitor
Monitor Max Res: 1600,1200
Driver Name: nv4_disp.dll
Driver Version: 6.14.0011.8084 (English)
DDI Version: 9 (or higher)
Driver Attributes: Final Retail
Driver Date/Size: 12/2/2008 23:11:00, 6166272 bytes
WHQL Logo'd: No
WHQL Date Stamp: None
VDD: n/a
Mini VDD: nv4_mini.sys
Mini VDD Date: 12/2/2008 23:11:00, 6209536 bytes
Device Identifier: {D7B71E3E-4562-11CF-FE65-483000C2CB35}
Vendor ID: 0x10DE
Device ID: 0x0622
SubSys ID: 0x104319DA
Revision ID: 0x00A1
Revision ID: 0x00A1
Video Accel: ModeMPEG2_C ModeMPEG2_D ModeWMV9_B ModeWMV9_A
Deinterlace Caps: {6CB69578-7617-4637-91E5-1C02DB810285}: Format(In/Out)=(YUY2,YUY2) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_PixelAdaptive
{335AA36E-7884-43A4-9C91-7F87FAF3E37E}: Format(In/Out)=(YUY2,YUY2) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_BOBVerticalStretch
{6CB69578-7617-4637-91E5-1C02DB810285}: Format(In/Out)=(UYVY,YUY2) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_PixelAdaptive
{335AA36E-7884-43A4-9C91-7F87FAF3E37E}: Format(In/Out)=(UYVY,YUY2) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_BOBVerticalStretch
{6CB69578-7617-4637-91E5-1C02DB810285}: Format(In/Out)=(YV12,0x3231564e) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_PixelAdaptive
{335AA36E-7884-43A4-9C91-7F87FAF3E37E}: Format(In/Out)=(YV12,0x3231564e) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_BOBVerticalStretch
{6CB69578-7617-4637-91E5-1C02DB810285}: Format(In/Out)=(NV12,0x3231564e) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_PixelAdaptive
{335AA36E-7884-43A4-9C91-7F87FAF3E37E}: Format(In/Out)=(NV12,0x3231564e) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_BOBVerticalStretch
Registry: OK
DDraw Status: Enabled
D3D Status: Enabled
AGP Status: Enabled
DDraw Test Result: Not run
D3D7 Test Result: Not run
D3D8 Test Result: Not run
D3D9 Test Result: Not run

-------------
Sound Devices
-------------
Description: SB Live! Audio [DC00]
Default Sound Playback: Yes
Default Voice Playback: Yes
Hardware ID: PCI\VEN_1102&DEV_0002&SUBSYS_80671102&REV_0A
Manufacturer ID: 1
Product ID: 100
Type: WDM
Driver Name: ctaud2k.sys
Driver Version: 5.12.0001.0296 (English)
Driver Attributes: Final Retail
WHQL Logo'd: Yes
Date and Size: 9/18/2003 20:47:22, 496800 bytes
Other Files:
Driver Provider: Creative
HW Accel Level: Full
Cap Flags: 0xF5F
Min/Max Sample Rate: 4000, 191999
Static/Strm HW Mix Bufs: 32, 29
Static/Strm HW 3D Bufs: 32, 29
HW Memory: 0
Voice Management: Yes
EAX(tm) 2.0 Listen/Src: Yes, Yes
I3DL2(tm) Listen/Src: No, No
Sensaura(tm) ZoomFX(tm): No
Registry: OK
Sound Test Result: Not run

When I start playing anarchy online I set it to a single core because I remember reading it worked to remove this "stuttering" for someone else. It really didnt work for me = \ I dont get much of it while wandering around in shadowlands but it happens alot in rubika.

[Fekal]

Do you have AMD dual core patch installed?

Dunno if this link is any help http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=81429

Tried fullscreen/window mode?

[CriticalDmg]

Tried switching between "Direct 3D T&L HAL" and "Direct 3D HAL" rendering modes in the settings on the launcher ?

[Juggernat]

Define stuttering? Is it your screen Shaking at odd camera angles when your camera view is too close to walls?

It's a Nvidia problem and has been for a year or more, I get this in AO/Lotro and have for a year or so.

[Ruthiford]

Define stuttering? Is it your screen Shaking at odd camera angles when your camera view is too close to walls?

It's a Nvidia problem and has been for a year or more, I get this in AO/Lotro and have for a year or so.

No lol not even close. Stuttering as in a complete system halt for a second or two.

[Ruthiford]

I have both the up to date drivers installed and the dual core optimizer installed. I have tried changing to just hal but that didnt help either. I'll try windowed mode and see if it makes any difference.

[Ruthiford]

Btw that link is dated 07-06-2006, 10:35 PM . You dont need to do any of those hot fixes or registry entries with the newest drivers.

[Gamespace]

No lol not even close. Stuttering as in a complete system halt for a second or two.

Most likely a HDD issue, id check the even viewer if i was you for some bad block reports, happen with the USB hdds at least quite often.

[jorricane]

....
Machine name: FRED
....

lol

[Mastura]

I am having the same problem.
I cannot work out what could be happening.

So far I've tried:

* Lowest settings
* Default and custom nvidia control panel profile for Client.exe (with various settings mentioned in the forums threaded mode off, high performance, aa, etc)
* Fullscreen and Windowed
* With and without T&L
* Tried setting affinity to client.exe to cpu 0 (aka 1 cpu)
* no i do not use noob AV software that lags the system, etc, etc.
* AO was a fresh install and goes to vista-friendly c:\games, and i've disabled every bit of vista security crap as well

Just loaded the latest nvidia driver yesterday and did all the above tests again; still no luck. So far the only thing that made a marginal difference is ReadyBoost, when I had a usb 2.0 pendrive before it was stolen, and I can't reinstall to Linux and/or XP at the moment either.

I have disabled all the Vista specialFX themes/nonsense. Unfortunately I cannot reinstall to XP until I am in a PC-friendly country, at which point I'm doing a full re-install and hoping that it fixes it.

This card has 512MB onboard ram, but can use system ram memory upto 2048 for video. The system itself (i know its a lot for a laptop) has 6gb ddr3, as you can see below. Maybe I need to disable swap/page-or-whatever-m$-calls-it file whilst I play AO so it doesn't use disk to swap out video ram or something?

What I have noticed, is that even when the FPS is chugging along at 30-50, it still moves choppy. I am pressed to say, that I can tell the difference when something has low fps, and not, and this is a different issue.

It >could< be internet latency, but I am not sure, I can download at 300Kbps when I really try. I don't know if there is any half-like style way to show netlag as well as fps to the currently connected server in AO? Another thing I've tried is running command prompt and doing a netstat to find out what funcom server/s I am connected to and done a ping -t <ip> continuously, but it rarely jumps to over 300ms... could it be that this is too slow?

What is the recommended speed of internet for AO? If I had better internet options in this country I could test it out, but I don't. In any case 300ms sounds ample.

Ok, what I'm trying next is running in 'Windows XP compaitiblity mode' whatever that means, and seeing if it makes a difference.

I'm outta ideas. Any help appreciated.

Symptoms:
* "Freezes" every 5-10 seconds, sometimes mainly when moving other times when not. Regardless of how long I have been in the zone (preloading).
* Tested ICC outside BS, inside BS, inside org hq, grid, nlc and bor
* freezes, regardless of the FPS rating - ie same symptom at 3.6fps and 50fps
* As usual, other games run >perfectly< at highest settings on this machine (only tested Dues Ex 2, Eve Online and silly web java games).

System specs:
VISTA x64
duocore (2x2.4ghz)
6gb ram (scanned for faults/bad sectors)
new hdd (scanned for bad sectors)
all tests with power plugged in and 'performance' power options
dx10

DxDiagOutput.txt:
Operating System: Windows Vista™ Home Premium (6.0, Build 6001) Service Pack 1 (6001.vistasp1_gdr.090302-1506)
System Manufacturer: Hewlett-Packard
System Model: HP Pavilion dv7 Notebook PC
BIOS: Default System BIOS
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8600 @ 2.40GHz (2 CPUs), ~2.4GHz
Memory: 6142MB RAM
Page File: 3345MB used, 9143MB available
DirectX Version: DirectX 10
DX Setup Parameters: Not found
DxDiag Version: 6.00.6001.18000 32bit Unicode
---------------
Display Devices
---------------
Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT
Manufacturer: NVIDIA
Chip type: GeForce 9600M GT
DAC type: Integrated RAMDAC
Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_0649&SUBSYS_30F4103C&REV_A1
Display Memory: 2542 MB
Dedicated Memory: 495 MB
Shared Memory: 2046 MB
Current Mode: 1440 x 900 (32 bit) (59Hz)
Monitor: Generic PnP Monitor
Driver Name: nvd3dum,nvd3dumx.dll,nvwgf2um, nvwgf2umx.dll
Driver Version: 7.15.0011.7948 (English)
DDI Version: 10
Driver Attributes: Final Retail
Driver Date/Size: 1/30/2009 09:12:00, 5976064 bytes
WHQL Logo'd: Yes
WHQL Date Stamp:
Device Identifier: {D7B71E3E-4509-11CF-806C-FF1001C2CA35}
Vendor ID: 0x10DE
Device ID: 0x0649
SubSys ID: 0x30F4103C
Revision ID: 0x00A1
Revision ID: 0x00A1
Video Accel: ModeMPEG2_A ModeMPEG2_C ModeVC1_C ModeWMV9_C ModeVC1_B ModeWMV9_B ModeVC1_A ModeWMV9_A

[Marebone]

Start -> type to the 'Start Search' field: Event Viewer

Poke around there and see if there is any events that have occurred at the moment of freezes.

[Mastura]

It happens continuously!

One tihng I noticed is that some stupid hp software thingy 'mediasmart tv' keeps crashing at least once a day. So I updated that. The changelog for it read "improves system performance". god, almost reads like one of those microsoft errors "there was an unspecified error." hehe

anyway, so far the best performance i am getting is with:

= lowest ao settings
= same video rez
= custom client.exe (anarchy) profile in nvidia control panel:

- ambient occlusion: not supported for this application
- anisotropic filtering: 8x
- antialiasing / gamma correction: on
- antialiasing / mode: override any application setting
- antialiasing / setting: 8xQ
- antialiasing / transparency: multisampling
- conformant texture clamp: use hardware
- error reporting: off
- extension limit: off
- force mipmaps: bilinear
- maximum pre-rendered frames: 3
- multi-display/mixed gpu accel: single display performance mode
- texture filtering / anisotropic sample optimizations: on
- texture filtering / negative lod bias: allow
- texture filtering / quality: high performance
- texture filtering / trilinear optimization: on
- threaded optimisation: off
- triple buffering: on
- vertical sync: force on

nvidia 9600M GT, with 2.5gb ram available to it and dual core cpu 2.4ghz
(as above)

going to check exact dx version

[Demoder]

I've found it best not to use AA/AF for AO.
Try forcing both off in the profile for client.exe?

[meatybtz]

The best fix for stuttering is to put the client.exe onto one processor.

Go into task manager and set it to one core or the other. Having it on both makes AO stutter like mad... i.e. AO !like multicore.

[Omutb]

The best fix for stuttering is to put the client.exe onto one processor.

Go into task manager and set it to one core or the other. Having it on both makes AO stutter like mad... i.e. AO !like multicore.

AO, and quite a few other games, dont like multicore *AMD* CPUs, iirc its a glitch in the processor driver for windows or something, it doesnt do it on Intel multicore CPUs that Im aware of.

[meatybtz]

I've experienced it on both intel and amd multicore processors.
AO was not written to work with multiple cores.

[Warhead]

I've experienced it on both intel and amd multicore processors.
AO was not written to work with multiple cores.

Well, most software isnt. However, I've been playing AO on my quad core for 1.5 now without issues - under vista. And before that on my AMD dual core under vista without issues.

However, when I bought my first dual core and used it with windows XP, there was that infamous stuttering issue indeed. And I fixed it with the above mentioned dual core optimizer (or driver as it was called initially).

AO, and quite a few other games, dont like multicore *AMD* CPUs, iirc its a glitch in the processor driver for windows or something, it doesnt do it on Intel multicore CPUs that Im aware of.

From my experience, this issue is gone with vista because MS fixed that glitch that plagued AMD systems out of the box. I've never had it again with my AMD system when I ditched XP for vista.

But theres plenty of other things that can go wrong with AO.. because its old.

What we have here is a mixed bag situation. One person using an AMD processor with XP (with optimizer installed but most of the time the issue is on RK and not in SL - the "original" issue was everywhere) and one an Intel processor with Vista.

I dont think either of the issues is necessarily related to the classic multicore problems but perhaps something else.

Another instance of stuttering that can be experienced is with weak video cards running lots of AA and AF, possibly even adaptive AA. From my own testing, this causes some weird stuttering in areas with certain textures such as trees and the like. Turning off image enhancing features gets rid of this for the most part.

I've recently had this when I used a cheap HD4350 (awful slow) to replace my HD3870 (I fried it) until the HD4770 became available. And years ago, my 7800GT would show the same behaviour when I cranked up AA and AF to the max.

[Khalem]

I've experienced it on both intel and amd multicore processors.
AO was not written to work with multiple cores.

Not entirely true. A good while back FC announced that there are some limited threading taking place. So even if AO was not written to work with multiple cores is works just fine with multiple cores and takes very limited advantage from it.

However some early dual core chips (mainly AMD iirc) had a timing issue in windows for which the dual core optimizer was released. This manifested itself with some sometimes funny issues in AO, but that should not have anything to do with the stuttering mentioned here.

The most common cause of stuttering in AO comes from AO loading textures, meaning disk I/O becomes a bottleneck, something which is very evident when going from XP -> Vista/W7 which has an improved I/O handler or running under Linux and also why SSD's improve AO's performance so greatly.

Keep in mind that AO's database now is nearing 2gigabytes, and thus fragmentation easilly happens. So be sure to defragment your drive(s) and make sure your chipset drivers are up to date.

There are a number of threads covering this issue in detail dating back a few years before FC carried out some optimizations to texture handling. People tried both RAID 0 setups as well as creating ramdisks to verify that the stutter was primarily disk I/O based.

Keep in mind that AO hardly utilizes your GFX card for rendering (mostly the DX8 effects which iirc is mostly limited to particle effetcs) so CPU is doing most of the work.

[Mastura]

FYI, it's not the dual-core issue expressed here.
I'm putting it down to network lag + traditional ao gfx/not being rendered on gpu lag/support for dx10 cards.

Firstly, its an intel cpu so any and all old amd/vista64 bugs out.

Secondly, I tried two different cpu affinity tools (SetAffinity and Lasso) and binding both Client.exe and Anarchy.exe to the a single cpu. It made negligible difference if any at all (no strict cpu timing tools used, just observation on the cpu monitors of both programs and ao performance seen through human eyes :-) )

I tried two separate programs in case the first didn't work. AO >seemed< to run faster when left to vista/cpu to do it's thing. I couldn't see any seperate threads running either but I'm not too familiar with threads in the microsoft world, how they are viewable, etc.

Cheers for the feedback though folks.

[Mastura]

Not entirely true. A good while back FC announced that there are some limited threading taking place. So even if AO was not written to work with multiple cores is works just fine with multiple cores and takes very limited advantage from it.

However some early dual core chips (mainly AMD iirc) had a timing issue in windows for which the dual core optimizer was released. This manifested itself with some sometimes funny issues in AO, but that should not have anything to do with the stuttering mentioned here.

The most common cause of stuttering in AO comes from AO loading textures, meaning disk I/O becomes a bottleneck, something which is very evident when going from XP -> Vista/W7 which has an improved I/O handler or running under Linux and also why SSD's improve AO's performance so greatly.

Keep in mind that AO's database now is nearing 2gigabytes, and thus fragmentation easilly happens. So be sure to defragment your drive(s) and make sure your chipset drivers are up to date.

There are a number of threads covering this issue in detail dating back a few years before FC carried out some optimizations to texture handling. People tried both RAID 0 setups as well as creating ramdisks to verify that the stutter was primarily disk I/O based.

Keep in mind that AO hardly utilizes your GFX card for rendering (mostly the DX8 effects which iirc is mostly limited to particle effetcs) so CPU is doing most of the work.

Damn, I just re-read your post properly Khalem. I find your answer to be satisfactory. This would also explain why plugging in the USB2.0 improved performance slightly. I had a hunch it was a disk but just couldn't convince myself since its brand new and smart says its nice and fit

Why would AO work worse/bottleneck with texture loading however, if the vista has an improved I/O handler btw? Doesn't make sense. Could you explain a little further?

Also, any idea if how the textures are loaded will change with the new millenium-promised engine?

I know about AO already largely underutilising GPU, but with further analysis, could this be the key factor given that my gpu has 512mb ddr3 builtin, but expands upto 2gb to use system memory (which total of 6gb, its all there for it to use) + page file or whatever windows calls the swap file, thrashing the disk, is causing the problem? I want to know more about the texture loading specifically as I'm not completely useless on a computer and may be able to optimize it or fix it if I understood what was happening exactly. From the sounds of things, clicking compressed textures or not, would make a big difference with my particular problem, but other things as well.

Thansk again folks