Definitive Research on Best PvM Doc Weapons Thread

[Heptagram]

Does AS work in PvM without using conceal?

No.

[amodrek]

so MBC = winner?

[Constant]

ifind this post quite interestiung too
as i am going to ipr my doc too
whch option should i go for?
melee or range?
sincce AI weaps looks good

[Biochemyst]

so MBC = winner?

I think all the analysis points to this fact. MBC is the top PvM weapon for docs in terms of damage output until you start to get into some exotic setups which may or may not be doable.

I've ruled out pistols for the most part because of the multirange requirement to get on anything over QL 199. Same for machine pistols. I seriously doubt that a Doctor can hit 1500-1700ish multirange even with all SL and AI multiwield perks trained (which would seriously hamper your style).

But you really can't ignore the melee weapons; for whatever reason, 1hb/1he caps as high as Pistol or Shotgun, but is triple implantable without losing any important skill. 1HB has Brutal Thug buff which aids in equipping higher QL weapons. And the dual-wield bonus is quite significant.

As soon as I can get some supple armor to put my 212 Type 5 SMG on, I'll do some real game-condition testing, but I do have high hopes.

As for Gelids at 175... if it's been done, then it's doable and been done. I've always thought that the Fast Attack was the real problem with those (nearly 300 points off at the TL5 cap), but maybe with AI and such, it's been resolved.

Assault Rifles, Shotguns, Rifles -- they're simply not competitive at the high end according to these numbers.

/bio

[Constant]

could advice wat is a MBC ?
thx

[Draconian84]

Massive Bolt Charger a.k.a MBC

[Xephydes]

*Brilliant thread*.

I usually go over the "what weapon to choose"-threads in all the forums, this one impressed me, very nice work here Biochemyst.

I've also been stunned by the damage output MBC-docs actually do, but in my opinion burst/FA (last not valid for MBC but still) users have an advantage when it comes to how adddmgtype works, since it's added to every hit. That rule alone gives the MBC the extra boost from the triple-hit burst.

A minor question for you MBC-users out of curiosity though, how many bullets do you usually land when bursting? 2 on average? 2,27?

[Xephydes]

Does AS work in PvM without using conceal? And if so, how?

No.

They changed it so it isn't possible to use AS in missions just open entering a room containing a mob? That was the only way it was possible though. Haven't used AS in missions since pre-TL6 on my MP, so I wouldn't know.

[Biochemyst]

*Brilliant thread*.

I usually go over the "what weapon to choose"-threads in all the forums, this one impressed me, very nice work here Biochemyst.

I've also been stunned by the damage output MBC-docs actually do, but in my opinion burst/FA (last not valid for MBC but still) users have an advantage when it comes to how adddmgtype works, since it's added to every hit. That rule alone gives the MBC the extra boost from the triple-hit burst.

A minor question for you MBC-users out of curiosity though, how many bullets do you usually land when bursting? 2 on average? 2,27?

Thank you.

I recently switched to SMG's based on this research -- I can't quite get my 212 Kyr SMG Type 5 on, but in an effort to understand the add-damage and the interaction between Burst/Fling and casting, got on a 192 Kyr Machine Pistol Type 5 with a 196 Machine Pistol offhand.

It makes a pretty big difference, imho. Whoever posted that specials make all the difference for Docs was right. The ability to land 2-3 Flings and a Burst or two *while casting ABC DoT's* is fairly significant over time.

On Ian Warr, I was really surprised to be able to land 2.2k Bursts constantly, with regular hits in the 750 range, which implies a 3-bullet Burst landing on Ian. I really thought my AR/Burst wouldn't be high enough to be reliable on one of the Mercs, but there it is.

With about 1100 Burst skill and 1100 Fling, I'm looking at 18sec Burst and 8sec Fling from the Machine Pistol. Thing is, the Machine Pistol has a burst cycle of 5000, while the Kyr SMG has a burst cycle of 2400, and the MBC has a ridiculously low cycle of 1600. For comparison, the mighty CDR has a burst cycle of 1983 [a favorite musical year of a FC designer maybe?]. That will have a big impact.

As I hear from MBC docs that they are able to get Fling down to 5secs, I'm researching the mechanics of Fling recharge as well to see how that is possible, while I'm looking at 8 sec Fling recharge. (It could be a visual bug tho, because I'm most definitely able to get 3 Flings in to 1 Burst, and since Burst is 18secs... Fling can't be 8 secs.)

I don't think there's any doubt that MBC will remain top of the heap as long as it has a 1600 Burst cycle, good min-max, good crits, and is 1/1 native. However, what remains to be seen is whether at the extremely high levels -- say 215+, where SMG cap starts to come into play vs. the HW cap, and Doctors with alien armor are able to push their AR/equip skills up quite a bit, whether the MBC remains the king at that point, or if the Kyr SMG finally surpasses it due to higher base damage and higher AR.

Frankly, if a 220 Doc is able to get on (let's say) a 240ish Kyr SMG Type 5 and keep it out of OE, I don't see how an MBC Doc would OD.

/bio

PS: By the way... if you're 210+... don't overlook the CDR. The AR and Burst/Fling skills possible at that level range makes this a real gem with all the add-damage items. I had to use this in offhand until I could get a type 5 for the Machine Pistol. This is with a Pistol skill somewhere in the 700's (never reset, and I like it for equipping buffing pistols), Burst/Fling in the 1100's. I was regularly landing 1.7k to 2k Bursts every 8 secs on Adonis Hecklers with fire aruls on, and a Soldier in team. It's not a GREAT option by any means, but it certainly is interesting due to the very very fast Burst/Fling recycle time.

[Biochemyst]

Need some help from someone with a far better understanding of weapon specials recharge....

I'm referencing this thread for information. Basically, it states that the formula for Burst recharge is:

Burst = (Recharge of Weapon * 20) + (Burst Cycle/100) - (Burst Skill/25)

and

Fling = (Attack of Weapon * 15) - (Flingshot Skill/100)

Under this formula, when I plug in my skill numbers (1100 Burst, 1100 fling), I get some odd results....

MBC which is 1.0/1.0 with a Burst cycle of 1600 shows up with -8sec for Burst and 4sec for Fling.

Kyr SMG which is 1.2/1.2 with Burst cycle of 2400 shows up with 4sec Burst and 7 sec Fling.

Kyr Machine Pistol which is 1.2/1.2 with Burst cycle of 5000 shows up with 30sec Burst and 7 sec Fling.

Okay, so for the first two -- MBC and SMG -- I suppose we assume that they will hit the Burst hardcap of 8secs, and that there is a Fling hardcap of 5secs (?) since that's what MBC Docs are reporting.

But the Machine Pistol... I'm definitely showing 18sec on my Burst recharge and 8sec on Fling... I can take a stopwatch but I'm pretty sure that Burst recycles a lot faster than 30 secs.

What am I doing wrong? Overlooking? Missing?

/bio

[Heptagram]

Nice Bio!

I have got a ql184 type 5 smg which I will put on as soon as I can get the implants blitzed and assembled, and twinked into.

According to a sticky at the fixer forums, dual machine pistols outdamage the submachinegun. You might just be happy with your weapons as they are now

[Ghostimage]

According to a sticky at the fixer forums, dual machine pistols outdamage the submachinegun. You might just be happy with your weapons as they are now

That would be assuming a Fixers high Burst skill which bring down the recharge on burst for the pistols. Without the high burst the difference might not be worth the MR investment... but I'm guessing, no hard numbers

[Biochemyst]

Nice Bio!

I have got a ql184 type 5 smg which I will put on as soon as I can get the implants blitzed and assembled, and twinked into.

According to a sticky at the fixer forums, dual machine pistols outdamage the submachinegun. You might just be happy with your weapons as they are now

Sweet Let us know the results.

I do agree with Redtail tho -- the difference between 2400 recharge and 5000 recharge can't be overlooked. I estimate one would need 1650 in Burst skill to cap the Burst on the Machine Pistol; and I frankly don't see a Doc getting to that.

However, I am DUAL-WIELDING the MP's... so maybe that would make a difference. (additional 30% or so base damage vs. faster Burst). Could check it out real quick and dirty. More after my meeting.

/bio

[Lord]

I was so lucky that the first time I soloed afreet he nicely dropped me a 220 MBC.

I made myself the following implants:

QL 259 Eye Implant: Heavy Weapons, Refined Bright
QL 278 Right-Arm Implant: Heavy Weapons, Refined Shiny Jobe
QL 276 Right-Hand Implant: Matter Crea, Refined Bright

I took it on quite easy at 213, as a solitus doc. Now at 216 I just took out my eye, and was not OE and did not need HW expertise to stay out of OE. With the eye in place I can re equip the MBC with a normal 131 and expertise.

I must say, that before equipping this gun, I was often iritatet for the lack of specials.. I never had the time to wait for the shooting of my MaW since I was either dotting the moob (mostly hehe) or healing myself, recasting hot/LC or what ever. Did Medusa philadender the other day and didnt even have time to dot the moob more then 2 or 3 times, had to constantly heal my self and refresh UBT/hot/LC and then rely on the dammage output from my MBC. The moob hits for 4-8k and nuke so you really dont want to be caught unprepared for instant heal when it hit's you. This would not have been doable with my MaW for sure hehe.

Last nite I desided to solo the pest, and as some know, it have alot of mini Pest's running around hitting you for 5k in 1½sec if you stand still.. so running in circles dotting and bursting was quite efficient. what im thinking of here is that gelids might not always be prefearable.
One day that I somehow ended up in adonis doing hecklers I ignored their dammage until I had castet all 3 dots & done viral combination. shooting normaly for a bit and ofcourse useing specials whenever they was avaible. I recall after quite a few houers trying effeciently to be the highest dammage dealer and tanking if not all, then close to all the hecklers that was killed, the MBC had done close to 1/3 of all the dammage acording to aoparser(im not a machine, so i might have forgotten to dot a few hecklers while chatting or burst while drinking some beer) of my total dammage, and the total dammage was about 6m.



Teamed with a 220 soldier I have a copy&paste from last alien attack:


You hit Sergeant - Ilari'Heru for 2019 points of radiation damage.Critical hit!
You hit Sergeant - Ilari'Heru for 3026 points of Burst damage.
You hit Sergeant - Ilari'Heru for 775 points of radiation damage.
You hit Sergeant - Ilari'Heru for 943 points of radiation damage.
You hit Sergeant - Ilari'Heru for 1003 points of FlingShot damage.

(without bracers/DB/ring's/kitty/umbral or RBP)


Also worth mentioning is that in inferno you hit minium dammage as a doc. the 220 mbc have a MBS of 1600 that will not be reached at 220, not with alien armor and funny perks either.

[Heptagram]

That sure is some nice implants you got hold of, Lord.

So many people reports the MBC to drop on 1st kill, I might try it myself soon.

Just ip resetted into smg. I had enough ip to max burst, fling, smg and ranged init. After the patch ill twink back up and do aliens to test thnigs out.

Even got myself a ql200 manex, will be fun to try - it should do ok on rubi atleast.

[Zoolander]

With rifles if you have a 40m range and you walk to about 41 meters then walk (backspace) into 40 meters you can aimedshot but you will lose some attacks and it's probably not worth it for a doc :P

And for gelids, the proc/nuke can land on a fast attack also, is that considered in the "calculations" ?

And what about lag and special attacks not being perfect. We all know it says x second fling but it usually takes x+2 seconds to do.

[Biochemyst]

With rifles if you have a 40m range and you walk to about 41 meters then walk (backspace) into 40 meters you can aimedshot but you will lose some attacks and it's probably not worth it for a doc :P

And for gelids, the proc/nuke can land on a fast attack also, is that considered in the "calculations" ?

And what about lag and special attacks not being perfect. We all know it says x second fling but it usually takes x+2 seconds to do.

Rifle wasn't even considered to be frank.

Gelids proc on Fast Attack was not considered, but there are so few situations where that would make an enormous difference, imho.

The main thing that this study shows is that at higher levels, some of the Kyr weapons become really quite decent. And specials are the key once you're doing all three SL dots due to being able to use them while in mid-cast.

Sadly, I'm distracted by WoW atm, so can't quite post the results of the SMG live test... perhaps Erxi could post his/her results?

/bio

[Zoolander]

Ah right, on the page before this one someone asked about concealment and ASing during PvM.


I think that the 16% chance was calculated in wrong. Like people said, it's 16% chance each time you hit, making it hard to calculate. It's not 16% of your hits being the nuke/proc. Otherwise it wouldn't happen 3-4 times in a row. On that note, the fast attacks do, in fact, play a role. Especially with 8-9 second recharge.

[Lord]

not sure how much time i would waste trying a AS setup for 230 hecklers in inferno.. they need UBT & DOT's already and healing the teammates take some time aswell.. and ASing dynas you want to solo might be a bad idea ill do those 13k max dammage faster with dots

[Blondenurse]

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