Definitive Research on Best PvM Doc Weapons Thread

[thebigbinky]

ok so dual gelids seems a good choice for a melee doc but, if a doc wanted to keep a pensive in one had what would be the best single handed melee weap for him to use?

[Disq]

Its all depends on what your equipment actually
if you have good enough equipment its amazing with mbc,

my current hits 1075per right now 5 sec fling 8 sec burst,
I outdmged a 217 doc with gelids while she casting 2 dot (nerf 217 dots ) and I was only casting 1

all depends on setup u got
gelids are cool but not really appealing for me while considering that my dmg is mostly comes from dots and I can use specialys while casting em only tricky part finding

[Caduceus]

Take the normal damage and reduce it by 1/3 and then add the specials back in. That should give you your damage while weilding a pensive in the off-hand. I imagine the rankings among 1 handed melee weps will stay the same since they're all reduced by the same multiplier.

Also remember that means to make weilding a pensive worthwhile it has to enable you to cast a new DoT that equals 1/3 of your weapon damage over the same time period (actually slightly more since it decreases your hits over the cast time). If you're talking about a new heal, then there's no real way to calculate that, just make sure you absolutely need that heal if you're gonna give up your damage output for it.

If you're dual weilding, the penalty is even greater. the DoT has to equal 2/3 of your weapon damage over the same time period for it to break even.

[Biochemyst]

Its all depends on what your equipment actually
if you have good enough equipment its amazing with mbc,

my current hits 1075per right now 5 sec fling 8 sec burst,
I outdmged a 217 doc with gelids while she casting 2 dot (nerf 217 dots ) and I was only casting 1

all depends on setup u got
gelids are cool but not really appealing for me while considering that my dmg is mostly comes from dots and I can use specialys while casting em only tricky part finding

Agreed. Even from a 210 doc perspective, Gelids are only #6 in the damage rankings.

I do wonder tho once you're at the 215 mark, whether a dual Kyr Pistol doc with Type 4 and Type 1 would not be competitive with an MBC doc -- if not OD'ing due to higher AR on pistols (even with no implant buffage) as compared to HW. I could be wrong; the numbers will tell a story tho.

The BIG advantage of Gelids at the 205+ levels is that they are easily self-equipped. If I want to go Inf. spirit kiting, I can just put on two XP guns w/o thinking about it. If I ever get my Rifle/AS high enough, I can just hotswap for pvp if I wanted. I can put a pensive in one hand if I should need it (though I suspect not with AI....)

/bio

[Portulis]

With combined officers gear and city advantages, using a pensive should be a thing of the past.

Wrangle on something and forget about it :P

[Ferret]

OK I did this a while back:

Damage Items (easy to obtain)
Bracelet of Arul Saba (2) 164
Might of the Revenant 32
Silver Spider Knuckledusters (QL260 example) 26
Ring of Power - Physics (2) 56
1K Token board 20
298

Assumed 1200 or something ATR, I cannot remmeber exactly... isn't FBR capped at that anyhow?
(assumed they add damage to both, as I cannot be bothered to check through with cold damage).
Assumed 9% scope, we can all get one pretty easy from missions.

Remeber Fling is 5 second recharge on MBC, not 8.
Assumed 30secs of casting every 60secs. Not hard to believe with UBT, 6 Dots and some heals.

MBC
Min Damage 1,018
Crit 2,098
Crit % 12
(Min + Crit) average Damage 1,148
Time (seconds) 2
Casting Time in 60seconds 30
Normal Damage in 60 seconds (-30secs casting) 17,220
Burst 3,054
Time (Seconds) 8
Fling 1,018
Time (Seconds) 5
Special Damage in 60 seconds 35,121
Damage per sec 872

FBR
Min Damage 1,794
Crit 1,794
Crit % 12
(Min + Crit) average Damage 1,794
Time (seconds) 2
Casting Time in 60seconds 30
Normal Damage in 60 seconds (-30secs casting) 26,910
Damage per sec 449


To confirm this my Bursts is normally as much as 35% of my damage when using Dots, Fling 10% and normal 5%, dots 50%.

[Ferret]

Thought I would add my skills at 217 as an idea too:

Self buffed and no nice +weapon skill alien armour

Fling 1165
Burst 1044
atr 1196
Heavy Weapons 1151

Honestly for high level docs special are the way to go for damage as you are casting 50% of your time.

Oh and 255+ imps.

[thebigbinky]

with all the high doc perspectives this is slowly but surely turning into a OMG WTB MBC kekekekekekekek !!!!11111 one one one thread.....

but even for those of us who dream of mbcs and intend to use them at some point what would you reccomend for those lvls (140-200+) which MBC's, even if obtained, are unequippable?

assuming we don't want to completely kill our RP situation

[Biochemyst]

Couple of points.

1. I will run some numbers on lower level Docs, so this doesn't become a "OMG GIMME MBC!!!" thread. And to show what possibilities exist for the lower level Docs. As I do not recommend picking up a weapon until 175 at the earliest (see the CR rule in my other posts), I will start with 175, and try to do 190.

2. There's no doubt that MBC is an uber weapon for the high level Doc.

3. But if specials are the only thing that count at higher levels, then there are some other options that should be examined, at a fraction of the cost of an MBC.

Taking Ferret's stats into account, compare the following:

Fling 1165
Burst 1044
AR 1196
Heavy Weapons 1151

This gives us 220 MBC as follows:


Massive Bolt Charger
Estimated Damage Range: 1018-1018 (2098)

In 120s with a cycle speed of 2s, (1s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 60 times. Total damage in 120s would be around 68880 points.

Applying the 50% rule-of-thumb that Ferret used, we get 34440 for normal damage


Special attack damage in 120s would be around 67232 points, bringing total damage to around 136112 points.

Your average normal hit would be around 1018 points.
Fling Shots in 120s would be approx. 16 @ 8s, adding around 18368 points.
Bursts in 120s would be approx. 16 @ 8s, adding around 3054 points each for 48864 points total.


Now... consider that MG/SMG skill for a Doctor caps higher than Heavy Weapons -- about 135 points higher according to Eylen's chart. I can't check atm, but I believe it is also more easily implantable than HW. In any case, I figured a QL 210 Kyr'Ozch SMG is probably equippable for a 217'ish Doc, and usable with 1350ish AR.


QL 210 Kyr'Ozch Submachinegun Type 5
Estimated Damage Range: 1055-1055 (1812)

In 120s with a cycle speed of 2s, (1s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 59 times. Total damage in 120s would be around 67614 points.

Applying the 50% rule-of-thumb that Ferret used, we get 33807 for normal damage. Difference is 633 points over 2 mins.



Special attack damage in 120s would be around 62646 points, bringing total damage to around 130260 points.

Your average normal hit would be around 1055 points.
Fling Shots in 120s would be approx. 16 @ 8s, adding around 18336 points.
Bursts in 120s would be approx. 14 @ 9s, adding around 3165 points each for 44310 points total.


Now... the MBC still comes out ahead... but it's CLOSE. I submit that if you are a 215+ Doc, and you don't have a 220 MBC, and don't wish to spend 1 billion creds (latest 220 MBC on RK2 went for 1b) for one, this sort of study would show some credible alternatives. Keep in mind that you will have about 150 more in Attack Rating as well.

My point is not to diss the MBC -- it's obviously a fantastic choice. Rather, my point is to say that the world of Doc weapons is not divided into Uber and Useless. The data shows that there are alternatives which offer an acceptable tradeoff.

/bio

[Ferret]

Hehe thebigbinky was not suggesting MBC was the only choice, just a good one , I would never pay that much for a gun anyhow so I just went killed the boss that drops it. OK so I was very lucky and got a 220 first kill..

AODB is wrong fling shot is 5 seconds recharge for the MBC. Also something is wrong with your figures? The min damage of MBC should be higher than the other gun, after all we only do min damage in SL. Maybe you included more attack rating?

Did you use 12% crit too?

Still looks like a nice option, would still beat Gelids.

[della]

Hi,

first I want to say: Great work on figuring out all those numbers, Biochemist

During the last week I found myself thinking several times about weapon choices for my doc in the higher levels (lvl 180 Nanomage doc using Maw right now). Damagewise I know it would be reasonable to go the Melee way (cause MBC is out of reach) and Gelids are easy to obtain but for Style reasons this is not an option to me

So I checked my possibilities and as I like Bows for style but regular Bows need Physical Initiative, I stumbled over the Alien Crossbow which looks very nice for me and it goes for Ranged Init which I already have skilled for my Maw.

Problem is, as I am on RK3 and there are not that much players, I know only one person which is using one and that is not a doc. So I'd like to know if someone has had the possiblity to test one of these, especially ql 200ish with type Fling and AS (not to have change weapon for PvP would be nice, too), which would be something like this:

http://aomainframe.info/showitem.aspx?AOID=254602

So I'd appreciate if anyone has information about Fling/AS recycle, Minimum Dmg, and how it can be compared to other ranged Weapons as Maw/Alien Shotgun which are already top of the list rangedwise according to the figures. The reason while I'm asking is because getting together 1335 Bow is not that easy so any information would be helpful to me

Thanks,
Della

[Biochemyst]

Hehe thebigbinky was not suggesting MBC was the only choice, just a good one , I would never pay that much for a gun anyhow so I just went killed the boss that drops it. OK so I was very lucky and got a 220 first kill..

AODB is wrong fling shot is 5 seconds recharge for the MBC. Also something is wrong with your figures? The min damage of MBC should be higher than the other gun, after all we only do min damage in SL. Maybe you included more attack rating?

Did you use 12% crit too?

Still looks like a nice option, would still beat Gelids.

You lucky SOB!!!

I can't even find Afreet alive ever :P

But I did use a higher AR -- 135 pts higher, since that's the higher cap for SMG skill. All others were held the same.

Also, I agree that AODB is wrong on the Fling; but if MBC is at 5secs with 1.0/1.0 and 1100 fling skill, the SMG isn't far behind at 1.2/1.2 and 1100 fling skill either.

Seems to me the big difference is that the MBC will get in 1 extra Burst every 60 secs or so -- that could add up over time.

Question for you -- are you hitting with all of your Bursts every time for 3 bullets? Is the lower AR on the MBC a factor at all in the higher playfields? (Inferno and Pande)

/bio

[amodrek]

with all the high doc perspectives this is slowly but surely turning into a OMG WTB MBC kekekekekekekek !!!!11111 one one one thread.....

but even for those of us who dream of mbcs and intend to use them at some point what would you reccomend for those lvls (140-200+) which MBC's, even if obtained, are unequippable?

assuming we don't want to completely kill our RP situation

yea, its like a dream weapon, only a few will get it and a few RP is nothing compared to the extra dmg you will get with a MBC

[AlexisMarie]

Alien Crossbows are not as good as the nimbus even on MP's. They maybe faster but on my doc or mp I am hardly ever on max def. Secondly Physical init is in the Support Symbiants where as Ranged is not. I had considered using bow on my doc since i had a lot of gear for it but realized I would not get the performance that I would have liked because I am not able to use some of the items I can on my mp. The Plus side of the bow is that it can be triple Symbiant/implanted as well as Physical init but not ranged init that is on the alien bows. Anyway from either perspective the alien bows aren't going to perform as well as the nimbus.

[Ferret]

I did some similar maths on Alien crossbow and it really does not work out well due to requirements.

Biochemyst I will try get some good stuff from AOparser for you, I have to say in SL the 3 burst lands a lot more often than not, I gues it is based the same as normal hits landing, but 3 in a row. So chance of landing is roughly the same for regular and specials, on harder Mord type mobs my specials tend to land a lot more than regular.

[thebigbinky]

I realize that while RPs may be insignificant when contemplating getting on a MBC but for those of us who wish to maximize their ability to adapt later in the game would it make sense to use an item such as the JAME blaster because of the common specials? I really don't know though I suspect my logic makes sense.


Anyway other options that might work pre-MBC are, in my mind....

JAME
CDR/Flux

Because you would not have to reset any specials and the only major drawback of using pistols (because of the inherent positive of buffing capabilities) would be the problem of multi ranged..

Anyway I hope some of what I said makes sense and I would like it if some other people had other easily reset pre-MBC options (i.e. Gelids don't count in my mind)

[Regidoc]

If you have a CDR in your hand, there is no problem with MR really. CDR has really low MR. MR checks the lowest stat, not the highest.

[thebigbinky]

MR checks the lowest stat, not the highest.

Aaaah that helps a ton... I cannot believe I didn't realize this till now but I guess since none of my characters ever really dual weilded anything... gimpdecks rool...

So I guess there is really no major drawback to sing a CDR/Flux at pre-mbc levels.

[Heptagram]

Hmm Bio very interesting comparison between MBC and alien submachine gun.


What about a type 12 Kyrozch submachine gun, with burst and full auto as specials?
It would probably mean lower AR, but added damage against mobs with low evades.

[Biochemyst]

Hmm Bio very interesting comparison between MBC and alien submachine gun.


What about a type 12 Kyrozch submachine gun, with burst and full auto as specials?
It would probably mean lower AR, but added damage against mobs with low evades.

I wanted to simulate that -- but unfortunately, dam sim can't do Fullauto sims well at all. I doubt docs can get the 13-15k FA's that soldiers can, but it's really difficult to estimate what kind of FA's we could do.

But if someone has a type 12 SMG handy on a fixer or something, I'd consider resetting to SMG to test it.

/bio