Upcomming nerf?

[Cz]

Originally posted by Hellfire
I understand your motivation but I would ask you and the developers to reconsider changing it again as I'd hate to see AO lose a pretty unique game mechanic. A good portion of the playerbase loves Skill Lock.

Wouldn't nerfing some weapons bring the balance back just as well if not better? I'd be happy to accept that, probably many others too. How do you other players feel about it?

Basically my point is a Skill Lock discussion cannot be made without the context of certain weapons. So you can adjust Skill Lock or adjust weaponry and achieve the same result as your original design intentions.

I fully understand that the modifier is a great thing to play with. I love having different modifiers and special actions to combine and experiment with myself. I'm always looking for new possibilities in this area (within the existing system - not new features) that I can point out to the devs.

However, leaving this modifier in the combat system would probably mean either that a lot of weapons would have to be changed (read: nerfed) or that the entire balance system for damage (not just weapons, but e.g. nukes and DoTs too) has to be reworked. Since the whole point of doing this would be to avoid nerfs, such a reworking would have to mean increasing all damage potentials. That again would mean we'd have to re-balance monster data, nanos and AC budgets to reflect this.

Basically, all systems are linked together, and rebalancing them all is a huge task. Between doing that and changing the effect of this modifier it's not really a hard choice, though it's not an easy choice either (hence the long time to agree on it).

[Struggler]

I said this in the other post, I will say it here:

-SkillLock should be dependent on the COLOR COST of the skill. A player with Blue Burst and Green Fling wielding an MBC w/ -10 skillLock should get maybe 1 second reduced for burst and maybe 4 for fling.

This is the best compromise I see. It would keep Docs, etc using the weapons they like without making -SkillLock too overpowered for them, while keeping the mechanic useful for other classes that like to twink/make themselves different.

[Dystopic]

Originally posted by Cz

I fully understand that the modifier is a great thing to play with. I love having different modifiers and special actions to combine and experiment with myself. I'm always looking for new possibilities in this area (within the existing system - not new features) that I can point out to the devs.

However, leaving this modifier in the combat system would probably mean either that a lot of weapons would have to be changed (read: nerfed) or that the entire balance system for damage (not just weapons, but e.g. nukes and DoTs too) has to be reworked. Since the whole point of doing this would be to avoid nerfs, such a reworking would have to mean increasing all damage potentials. That again would mean we'd have to re-balance monster data, nanos and AC budgets to reflect this.

Basically, all systems are linked together, and rebalancing them all is a huge task. Between doing that and changing the effect of this modifier it's not really a hard choice, though it's not an easy choice either (hence the long time to agree on it).

Understood, how about these solutions?

1) Change the way Specials Skills reduce recycle time, i.e. more Burst skill needed to reduce recycle time by 1s. As it is now, so many TL6 Fixers and Soldiers have way way more burst than needed to get to the hard skill cap. (As it is even without the Skill Lock issue, I think this needs addressing anyway as the IP budget with SL has made many specials too easy to use by many profs.)

2) Change the hard skill cap. Say Vhalor is right about Burst specials capped at 7s plus Attack time of the weapon. Adjust the 7s up somewhere and then when Skill Lock affect it then we are back to where you want to be.

3) Just nerf some weapons. In reality there are only a few weapons that are "unbalanced" from Skill Lock. MBC, Perennium, Caterwaul, SMG, Jobe Pistols, and a few more. Personally I think the MBC and Perennium weps need more recycle time.

[Nugget]

nugget is no longer a happy soldier if said changes were to go through

Sure i am all for balance and since it will happen to all professions thats great.

My beef is that it is going to effect the soldier profession by far the most compaired to other classes. Soldiers (spastics mostly, p.beamers to a lesser extend) get their damage mostly from burst/full auto. Loosing 5 seconds to skill lock nerf doesn't sound like much to another class like say an adv whos using the Full auto pistol every 30 seconds or so but when a soldier does these specials every 10ish seconds and those specials consist of 80%+ of the damage... your talking about a SERIOUS hit as far as damage output goes.

eg.) Using my current equipment. 240 spastic, jsut regular, store buyable skill lock clusters.

With skill lock the my damage output goes from

3354 every 8 seconds on burst
1118 every 2.75/1 on a normal shot
14613 every 11 on FA

= ~ 122780/min


to
Without skill lock

3354 every 10 sec on burst
1118 every 2.75/1 on normal shot
14613 every 15 seconds on FA

= ~96485/min

that a 21.4% nerf to our damage just by us loosing a couple seconds because of a little skill lock. And thats jsut your average soldier. I don't use the absolute best stuff nor am I even a high level.


Now its not exactly like we need a nerfing. A good soldier only really has to worry about Shades, high level MAs, doctors with the best dots, some enforcers and some variations of MPs/MP Pets but you might as well restrict us to using novaflows if your going to hit us like that.

so PLEASE funcom, take that a tad into concideraton. if you are going to change things i seriously hope your going to give some soldier luv to help compensate

Im sure you'll get plenty of suggestions out of this. A few quickies ones from my head would be -special recharge soldier nanos, a little more damage in our profession specific weapons to compensate or just change the rules for the recharge VS skill level formulas


<edit>
And yes im aware its not like its a direct nerf on soldiers. But when your professions is totally built on one or two things and they get nerfed by 1/4 regardless of reason your not going to have happy campers

[Cz]

Originally posted by Hellfire
Understood, how about these solutions?

1) Change the way Specials Skills reduce recycle time, i.e. more Burst skill needed to reduce recycle time by 1s. As it is now, so many TL6 Fixers and Soldiers have way way more burst than needed to get to the hard skill cap. (As it is even without the Skill Lock issue, I think this needs addressing anyway as the IP budget with SL has made many specials too easy to use by many profs.)

2) Change the hard skill cap. Say Vhalor is right about Burst specials capped at 7s plus Attack time of the weapon. Adjust the 7s up somewhere and then when Skill Lock affect it then we are back to where you want to be.

3) Just nerf some weapons. In reality there are only a few weapons that are "unbalanced" from Skill Lock. MBC, Perennium, Caterwaul, SMG, Jobe Pistols, and a few more. Personally I think the MBC and Perennium weps need more recycle time.

I can't answer that question, as I'm not the one to decide. I think the suggestions are interesting, though I must admit I do find it more likely we'll change a newer game mechanic addition than start changing the old basics of the combat system. Definately food for thought though.

[Jellobiafra]

Well, I'm probably answering my own question here, knowing that PvP doesn't factor too much into your balancing or at all from what I have seen over the years...

But it's only now that newer weapons and skill lock items have come into play, that you aren't hearing as much complaining about Agents being able to AS people on the battlefield for 40% every 10 seconds. Finally, after all this time, the rest of us can start to compete.

PvP must be considered when balancing damage output. You can't release a damn expansion that pushes it, without considering it. And right now, PvP, at least beyond the low level tower twinks, is all about specials.

So before going back to effectively lowering every weapon wielders damage output on the battlefield, shouldn't some thought go into balancing? And your sanity, which has at least been partially saved from screams about AS being overpowered lately????

[Escritores]

I fully agree with Nugget on this one... This will impact Spas/Coop users by a very large amount of dmg... 4-5 secs here and there that's ALOT of dmg gone from FA's... NTs are the only ones seeming to see joy in this... Why nerf one prof to satisfy another i don't get it, i could see it if it was the majority of professions that was hurt by this but it's not...

[Esqi]

Nerfin weapons is never nice, i dont agree with a weapon nerf in general as some have suggested.

Tbh, the devs wouldnt of envisioned 4/5 sec fling/burst respective on that gun..said profession becomes quite powerfull and game is inbalancd even further.

Fix skill locks so they affect FA stims and thats it. Weapon skills should determine weapon recharge, simple.

I for one have used it at lower & current levels, i know what its like.

We wont get that much affected by it, it will just drop everyones numbers who are using them down a notch whille applying some sort of balance.

FYI my FA is capped at 12sec regardless of skll lock.

Esq

[Cz]

Originally posted by _-EscritoreS-_
Why nerf one prof to satisfy another i don't get it, i could see it if it was the majority of professions that was hurt by this but it's not...

This isn't about nerfing a profession, nor about pleasing another profession. It's about making a correction instead of changing the entire game balance budget because of an unintended effect.

[Escritores]

Originally posted by Cz

This isn't about nerfing a profession, nor about pleasing another profession. It's about making a correction instead of changing the entire game balance budget because of an unintended effect.

Well neither if it is or isn't about nerfing a profession it will do just that... With Coop/Spas etc weapons souly dependent on fast specials it will effect professions depending totally on special recharges.

Well Esq as u see it will affect alot of ppls specials by several seconds.

Removing it will simply ruin it for alot of ppl instead of fixing anything.. As it is allready ingame and was ingame when the current weapons was introduced and so many ppls current setup etc are completely based on skill lock removing it now does not make sense.

[Dystopic]

For myself who currently has -36% Skill Lock mods and had access to -42% in 2 levels this change is a major nerf to my damage output. It will probably hurt my Manta tank gun output too, there goes OTACS.

[Cz]

Originally posted by Hellfire
It will probably hurt my Manta tank gun output too, there goes OTACS.

While I can't say for sure, I don't think the modifier will stop working on Heavy Weapons (which the Manta cannons lock). Nor do I think it'll stop affecting Grenades or Bow Special. Brawl is in a grey area, I guess, as it's a more typical special attack than those but doesn't recycle faster based on skill.

[Predicament]

Dont nerf me ArmoredVehicle pls thank you very much

[Dystopic]

Originally posted by Cz

While I can't say for sure, I don't think the modifier will stop working on Heavy Weapons (which the Manta cannons lock). Nor do I think it'll stop affecting Grenades or Bow Special. Brawl is in a grey area, I guess, as it's a more typical special attack than those but doesn't recycle faster based on skill.

Hehe, woot! Cz, knows about Mantas. Can you make them better pls? J/K LOL (Thrilled you know what they are since they seem to be so ignored.)

Well I think if Skill Lock won't affect weapon specials, no Soldier will invest in them since all they will do is gimp a soldier's AC, HP, etc. So in essence, Mantas are back to a 10s recycle along with everything else (Stims, grafts) for a Soldier/Agent.

[Cz]

Heading to bed soon, and leaving town for a few days starting tomorrow, so don't get upset with me for not answering here until Tuesday, ok? Thanks. Have a nice weekend.

[Auto]

I love you, Cz. Perhaps NTs and Agents will have a role in SL in the future now. I honestly don't see how all of the soldiers can't see how strong they are right now. In my opinion all professions should sacrifice something to be good at another. What does a soldier sacrifice? Besides time, from camping.

[Deathstalker]

Originally posted by Autolycith
What does a soldier sacrifice? Besides time, from camping.

Money to FC while doing nothing? :P

[mrsnifles]

First off, I don't know anything about coding or programming. Now can u make two separate categories. One for -skill lock and one for -specials lock. Maybe make -special lock items proffession based. That was damage proffessions could get better versions. And nonweapon based proffesions get milder versions. Don't know if that is possible or if it is a good idea or not. Just tossing some ideas around.

[Vhalor]

While I can understand everyone not wanting to loose damage output, please understand that the current setup of skill lock was not what was intended by the devs and is causing an unintended problem to game ballance. This is causing an imballance in the game that the devs either have to; A)correct the unintended effects or B) boost the damage of every other proffesion in game. I'm sure you can see why this is an easier solution and what will allow the devs more time working on actual content and bug fixes and less time on ballance issues.

I don't like loosing damage anymore then the next guy but this needs to be done. I would rather take a hit to damage and have more content then keep my damage and have the damage of 13 other proffesions boosted to ballance things. Let's keep our eye on the ball here, we'll still be uber even with a damage nerf. If it allows the devs more time working on in game content and less time on ballancing I'm all for it. Let's face it we need some content besides killing hecklers for days on end and camping dyna's with a 2% drop rate, that is where I would rather they were spending they're time =)

[Compounded]

how about just add a control based profession req to control crep armor

surprised no one has brought up the Action Not Available issue when using skill lock.